Thursday, July 08, 2010

The Pharaoh's Heart

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live"

Deuteronomy 30:19

Lies.

Choice; that's the cornerstone of the Christian faith. Adam and his rib-woman were banished from Eden because they chose to disobey the Christian god over some fresh produce. That act constitutes the Original Sin and all their descendants henceforth would carry its taint. We are all born with that taint within us and it is the reason why all of us would be lovingly and eternally tortured by the All-Merciful, All-Loving biblical godhead even if we somehow led completely blameless lives - unless we choose to accept the sacrifice of Jesus of Nazareth to atone for the sin of a crime we did not even commit.

The above is the central tenet of Christianity, more or less, and I trust that any reasonably moral and sane person should be able to spot at least two unambiguously immoral and evil principles in it. Firstly, descendants are culpable for the wrongdoings of their ancestors and could be tormented for eternity for it. Secondly, it is apparently okay to scapegoat; to make someone else suffer for our sins; to condone the crucifixion of a supposedly innocent man in order to escape never-ending pain and gain everlasting bliss.

There's a more tenuous third thing concerning the illusion of choice and free will in the whole fabric of the Christian reality, and it is the subject I aim to discuss here to the best of my ability and knowledge. I shall be using the King James' Bible when I quote any relevant verses because I like the 'thees' and 'thous'.

It would be real helpful if you have seen DreamWorks' The Prince of Egypt, by the way.



The Story of the Pharaoh's Heart.

"And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go."

Exodus 4:21

The Mosaic mythos is perhaps one of the most well known tales in the world. Moses is the Hebrew Boy Who Lived; abandoned by his mother to the mercy of the Nile at the age of 3 months on a little bulrush ark, he was rescued by the Pharaoh's daughter and was raised by her as one of her own.

To flash it forward, Moses eventually became God's instrument and prophet in the LORD's "persuasion" of the Pharaoh to let the His chosen people - the Israelites - leave Egypt. The quotation marks are because the whole affair looks like a pathetic sock puppet theatre put up by God who had control over both the good and bad guys for the express purpose of showing how powerful He really is. On one hand, He had Moses throwing the 10 Plagues at Egypt to get Pharaoh to give in to His demands - while His other hand was pulling the strings of the Pharaoh's heart and making the hapless monarch act like a ridiculously stubborn nincompoop who refused to cooperate even after God repeatedly proved that He could seriously mess his shit up.

And if that's not enough, God also admitted to having created the Pharaoh just so the man could defy Him - it was clearly said by God himself in Exodus 9:13-16 and referenced in Romans,


"For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."

Romans 9:15-17

So, did the Pharaoh really possess free will when his actions were already predestined by God at the point of his creation?


God Hardening Pharaoh's Heart
I like how Yahweh got an arm around that redheaded minx.

Even before Moses first went before the Pharaoh on His order, God already said that he will
"harden" the Pharaoh's heart (Exodus 4:21). It's all part of the Plan, see - God was out for blood from the very start. Even if Pharaoh turned out to be a pretty reasonable fellow and would totally be okay with letting the Jews go, God would still change Pharaoh's mind just so He would have an excuse to unleash His Judgment on him and Egypt.

I mean, the guy was ready to relent on his own by Plague #6 (boils!) but "the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh" (Exodus 9:12) so Moses' people would have to stick around a bit longer for more of God's magic skillz.

What made me realise that God is a complete monster was right after Plague #8 (locusts!) when Pharaoh - reduced to a begging, apologetic wreck - besought Moses to entreat the LORD on his behalf to lift the curse. At this point, it was understood that Pharaoh was prepared to release God's people. "But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go" (Exodus 10:20). Immediately in the very next verse, God commanded Moses to bring forth the 9th Plague (darkness!). This too had the effect of softening Pharaoh up and the bloke was again all ears to Moses' appellations. "But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go" (Exodus 10:27).

And finally, God performed His killing blow, the 10th and final piece: the Plague on the Firstborn. At the stroke of midnight, all the firstborn of Egypt were struck down by God's terrible curse. Many of those who were murdered by God were undoubtedly children; kids too innocent to be responsible for the Hebrews' plight and too young to know which deity is the right one to worship. And since they did not die in a covenant with God, they would all go to Hell to be tormented till the end time.

This needn't have happened if God hadn't fucking meddled with the Pharaoh's free will. He could have magicked the Hebrews out of Egypt instantly. He could have mind-tricked the Pharaoh into release His people since He's obviously not above messing about with people's heads. But no, He's a bloodthirsty metaphysical bogeyman and He wanted death and damnation. Quite clearly, it is in His nature to be wicked.



The Question of Evil.

This is the sort of being that all Christians worship - a sadomasochistic cosmic psychopath who treats human beings like playthings and feels that He's justified in hurting us if it serves to glorify His name. A Christian friend gave me a copy of the Holy Bible back when I was in high school. I browsed through it then, but none too seriously. My friend made me promise that I would not deface the volume, tear pages out, or use it to prop a chair up or something. I kept that promise till this day.

When I was in India, I became a rather receptive agnostic, and even attended a good number of church services (more than my Prebysterian girlfriend, and that's saying something). Then I took to studying the Bible in earnest, with every intention of converting to Christianity eventually - and what I read froze my blood. I approached the so-called Good Book asking myself one simple question: What does it mean to believe in the God of the Bible? While the rest of the scriptures were equally problematic (to understate it), it was the Book of Exodus and what I've personally dubbed as the Story of the Pharaoh's Heart which left the strongest impression in my mind and the worst taste in my mouth.

Not ruling out that there might be a perfectly rational explanation for it, I asked a Christian colleague regarding God's actions in Exodus. He simply told me that "they were to glorify God's powers." That frightened me something fierce. In that singular moment, I realise with a chill that he and every other Christian in this world truly and fully condone everything that God did to the Pharaoh and the people of Egypt, young and old, innocent and guilty alike. Are they blissfully unaware of the ethical ramifications of what they have chosen to believe in?

Oh, I wouldn't say that Christians possess a moral compass so fractured that they are no longer capable of objectively seeing the difference between good and evil. And I certainly wouldn't say that their conscience is so corrupted that they are unable feel even the slightest twinge of remorse for getting in bed with an omnipotent, petty and sick tyrant who are still torturing the innocent children of Egypt to this day and will continue to do so forever more.

These are things I wouldn't say.



The Illusory Nature of Christian Free Will.

Christians will tell you that you have a choice according to their worldview, and if you choose to defy Him, it's your own damn fault and the subsequent penalty He imposes on you is completely just and justified. Yes, all you need to do is accept the salvation of a cruel and jealous deity through the gory sacrifice of his meek and mild only begotten son, and the only evidence for the veracity of this claim is a patrocentric, misogynistic, xenophobic, homophobic and contradictory collection of Bronze Age literature written by superstitious shepherds with sequels penned by four disciples of a Rabbi two thousand years ago in Pontius Pilate's Judea. No reputable historian would endorse the historicity of the Exodus story. No sane geologist or biologist would defend the inerrancy of the tale of Noah's Ark and the Flood.

And the prescribed punishment for choosing not to believe what this unproven, unvefiable and morally reprehensible bunch of scriptures say about some guy named Jesus is? Everlasting and unrelenting torture in Hell and fire. Does this, in any way, sound even remotely fair or just to you?

What's the fucking use of free will if these are the only two choices we are allowed to make? If we are even allowed to make them in the first place, that is.

There's more, of course. There's always more shit in the Bible if you look hard enough.


"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will..."


Ephesians 1:4-5

Those verses clearly expressed Paul's belief that we are all predestined to either believe or disbelieve from the beginning by the omniscient, All-Encompassing Christian God "according to the good pleasure of his will." Concurring with the theme that salvation or damnation is predetermined and not through our choices is this bit from the Second Epistle to Timothy,


"Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began..."


2 Timothy 1:8-9

For another instance of God just plain screwing around with your free will like he did with the Pharaoh's, Judas' and Satan's, chapter 2, verse 11 of the Second Epistle to the Thessalonians says, "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie." What this means is that God will deceive you to get you past the point of redemption, presumably because He finds the whole thing fucking hilarious.


The God Delusion
"This is what I think of your free will, bitches MUAHAHAHA!" - God.

Christians always talk about God having the whole shebang figured out. God has a Plan for all of us. God decides our Fate. We are all created to fulfill a Purpose which God has created us for. These are hokums which get thrown around by the churchgoing species a lot. Do all these catchphrases smell like free will to you?

My point is, if God is the architect of events past, present and future; aren't we just going through the motions? Aren't we just like the Pharaoh?



The Responsibility of Belief.

Did I write this entire post to provoke Christians? Yes. Did I aim to antagonise Christians? No.

What I wish to provoke is a sense of reality. I hope to confront the relevant parties with the implications of their faith. I want them to take their heads out of their cloud of joyous adulation and jerk emotions out of their driver seats - if only for a minute - to play the devil's advocate; to scrutinise everything which constitutes their belief system with the cold, unbiased blade of intellect and the effective blunt edge of common sense.

Is it possible that the Bible is neither historically accurate nor divinely inspired after all? Is it possible that the God of the Bible is evil? Think for a second: Can it be that the Bible is simply a test laid down by a REAL Creator who is truly moral and rational as an acid test to separate those who are honestly capable of distinguishing between good and wickedness through the perspicacity of their conscience from those who just follow dogma and doggerels blindly and unquestioningly? Not that I believe in such a thing but it is an interesting thought.

All I want everyone to do is decide what is right and wrong for themselves, and not surrender that responsibility to some old book which demands that you to trust in its every judgment and to follow its every word to the letter.

Oh, I'm such a wide-eyed idealist, I know.



P.S. I apologise if anyone took offence with anything I've written here, but this is my mind and I'm at liberty to speak it - the same way that everyone has the freedom to ignore it. What I'm sharing here is a personal story of how I, a pilgrim in search of God, found the clarity of atheism between the pages of the Bible.




Has a heart but does not think with it,
k0k s3n w4i

17 comments:

février said...

another religion post? *munches on maltesers*

Phoebs said...

maltesers are yummy!! :D

février said...

so are galaxy minstrels! ^_^

Zzzyun said...

haha yeah...i used to my christian friends abt stuff i read in the bible..which doesnt seem to make any moral sense to me...

u have hit the nail on the head!!!

Terri said...

i think he does it on purpose. like without religious debates, his life is meaningless or something. or at least not as much fun :P

have you tried white choc maltesers? i think the normal milk choc ones are way better :3

k0k s3n w4i said...

beve and phoebs: halp! christian girls are talking about snack food in my anti-religion post T_T

Zzzyun: phoebe herself had actually brought up the pharaoh's story to a cell group member of hers. she didn't get a satisfactory answer either :/

Terri: debates? what debates? almost everyone is talking about junk food here -.-

siehjin said...

here come the debates, about 2 years late... =)

as a christian who reads my bible, i also encountered this problem, many years ago. i asked a pastor who knows hebrew about it, and he told me that in hebrew usage, passive action can be expressed in an active way. in other words, 'God hardened Pharaoh's heart' can be taken to mean 'God allowed Pharaoh's heart to be hardened'.

this sort of reading is supported by the many ways the hardening is spoken of in the text. refering to the NIV, there are times when God is said to harden Pharaoh's heart (e.g. Exodus 7:3; 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; and 11:10) as well as times when Pharaoh is said to harden his own heart (e.g. Exodus 8:15, 32; and 9:34) as well as times when Pharaoh's heart is simply said to be hardened with no indication of who does the hardening (e.g. Exodus 7:13, 22; 8:19; and 9:7).

based on this understanding, i would say that God simply allowed Pharaoh to harden his own heart. also, to me, these various ways the hardening is spoken of show us the interplay between predestination and free will. and, i would certainly say that God doesn't mess with our free will per se; rather, in His omnipotence and omniscience, He is able to bring about His purposes and His sovereign will even while allowing every human being to make his/her own free choices.

hope that my explanation will be helpful to some of you. =)

p.s. kok, since the comments mention that a number of your commentors have asked this question and been unable to find a satisfactory answer, i'd appreciate it if you could let them know that one has been attempted here, in case they are still interested. thanks! and nice blog, btw. =)

k0k s3n w4i said...

siehjin: i've heard that line of apologetics before, but when you read Romans 9:15-17 ("For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, EVEN FOR THIS SAME PURPOSE HAVE I RAISED THEE UP, THAT I MIGHT SHEW MY POWER IN THEE, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.") your interpretation sounds hollow and unsatisfying - like someone trying to wriggle out of an uncomfortable fact. furthermore, you failed to address the fact that your god murdered all the firstborns of egypt. like i said: you christians have a fractured moral compass, and i thank you for showing that to my readers. also, the christian girls who commented here long ago; they are no longer christians.

siehjin said...

i'm aware that this explanation is unsatisfying to sceptics like you, but personally, as a believer, i find it sufficient.

on the death of the firstborns - you are right to point out how terrible it is that they died. no decent human being should be able to think of it without shuddering.

logically speaking, though, it makes no sense to me to accuse God of murder. as the Author and Giver of life, He has the right to take it away. it is wrong for us to murder our fellow human beings for the very reason that we are human beings and not God. by taking another man's life, we do something which only God has the right to do, effectively usurping His place.

as for having a fractured moral compass - i am a fallible human being and this may well be true of me. it is my hope and my prayer that as i walk with God and grow in knowledge of Him, my moral compass will be made more whole. for i believe that He is the moral Lawgiver and the personification of moral goodness.

hopefully, interaction with fellow humans such as yourself will also help in the recovery of that moral compass. thank you for that.

i'm not sure if it's polite to ask, but i'm always curious when i hear of christians losing their faith. do you know why those girls are no longer christians, and could you share their stories with me? if this question is inappropriate, please forgive me.

k0k s3n w4i said...

siehjin: let me rephrase; romans 9:15-17 directly contradicts your interpretation. it clearly said that the very purpose of the pharaoh's existence is for god to show off his powers. god did not simply "allow pharaoh to harden his heart" as you tried to spin it. he actively planned for it to happened.

"logically speaking, though, it makes no sense to me to accuse God of murder. as the Author and Giver of life, He has the right to take it away"

logically speaking, if god really did make a gift of life to us ("giver of life" as you phrased it), we effectively own our lives when we inherited it. that's what gifts are, sieh, unless you habitually take back things you give to other people.

now imagine that you are a scientist and you have created a cute puppy from scratch. this puppy is indistinguishable from a natural-born puppy - it is sentient and can feel pain, fear, hunger. then one day, to prove a point, you crushed its cute little head in with a hammer. tell me that that isn't a monstrous thing to do. it doesn't matter that you created it. this creature experiences the life that you have given it, and along with it all the pains you subsequently deal to it.

thanks for continuing to display to my readers the fractured christian moral compass that i frequently reference in my posts.

if you are interested in conversing with people who have lost their faith, ask to join the malaysian atheists, freethinkers and agnostics (MAFA) facebook page. the majority of members there are ex-christians and ex-muslims, and they don't mind sharing their stories freely so long as you do not try to proselytise to them. you'll need permission to get in, and i - as an admin of the group - is willing to provide that.

siehjin said...

>> "romans 9:15-17 directly contradicts your interpretation... he actively planned for it to happen."
if you'll refer to my first comment up there, in the last paragraph before i sign off and add a post-script, i don't deny that God has His sovereign will, His divine purposes and plans. what i do deny is that He meddles with human beings' free will in order to accomplish what He desires. so i don't see that "he actively planned fo it to happen" contradicts my interpretation.

it's interesting that Romans 9:17 actually quotes from Exodus 9:16. in it's original context, it is followed by Exodus 9:17 - "You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go," which implies that pharaoh had his free will and exercised it in hardening his own heart. also, while this message from God to Pharaoh via Moses was preceded by "the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart," in Exodus 9:12, it is succeeded by "When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts," in Exodus 9:34.

>> "logically speaking, if god really did make a gift of life to us ('giver of life' as you phrased it), we effectively own our lives when we inherited it. that's what gifts are, sieh..."
thank you for challenging my assumptions regarding God as the Giver of life. i've never thought about it from that angle before.

siehjin said...

>> "then one day, to prove a point, you crushed its cute little head in with a hammer. tell me that that isn't a monstrous thing to do."
it does indeed sound monstrous, unless i had very good reason for doing so. let's say, for instance, that by taking that puppy's life i could save the lives of ten other puppies. in such a situation, it might be justified for me to take the puppy's life. maybe not with a hammer though. *shudders*

so the question is, was the 'point' good enough for God to take those firstborn's lives?

the main point as portrayed in Romans 9:15-17 is for God to display His power and make His name known. now, from a human perspective, this is egomaniacal. but consider for a moment that this is God we speak of, not a fellow human being.

if this God is all that i believe Him to be,then He is the highest good in the universe. if so, He does indeed deserve to be believed in, worshipped, and praised. also, if He is infinitely good, then the goodness of knowing Him would outweigh any and all of the temporary sorrows and sufferings of this world.

with this perspective in mind, if God's actions caused Him to be more widely known on the earth, it means that many more people may have the chance to know His infinite goodness. this benefit to many may well outweigh the loss of those whose lives were taken, if such things could be measured.

also, while that might have been the main reason, there were also other reasons why God did what He did. one of those reasons was to free the israelites from 400 years of oppression and slavery. again, if such things could be measured, it is certainly possible that the good of freeing and liberating an entire nation might outweigh the evil of the egyptian firstborns' deaths. and, at the beginning of exodus, the pharaoh ordered that all male israelite babies be killed (Exodus 1:22). so in that sense, the deaths of the Egyptian firstborn can be seen as a just judgment upon them.

also, another reason why God did this was for the formation of the new nation of israel. and it is through this nation that all nations would be blessed, as promised to Abraham in Genesis 12:3. for example, looking at the list of nobel laureates, there is a disproportionate number of Jews who have made a significant contribution to the knowledge and progress of the world. more than that, it is through Israel that Jesus Christ was born - Him whom Christians believe to be the Saviour of all mankind. so once again, from the christian's perspective, the evil of the deaths of the Egyptian firstborn may well be outweighed.

k0k s3n w4i said...

siehjin: "i don't deny that God has His sovereign will, His divine purposes and plans. what i do deny is that He meddles with human beings' free will in order to accomplish what He desires. so i don't see that "he actively planned fo it to happen" contradicts my interpretation."

thanks for missing all the points in my post about the illusory nature of christian free will.

"thank you for challenging my assumptions regarding God as the Giver of life. i've never thought about it from that angle before"

you're welcome.

"it does indeed sound monstrous, unless i had very good reason for doing so. let's say, for instance, that by taking that puppy's life i could save the lives of ten other puppies. in such a situation, it might be justified for me to take the puppy's life. maybe not with a hammer though. *shudders*"

and your omnipotent and infinitely wise god could not think of a solution to the problem that did not entail the murder of countless innocents. you are proving to me that god is neither omnipotent nor infinitely wise. i myself can sit here and think of a million solutions to the problem god was trying to solve without messing with free will. the unavoidable answer is that either god's an asshole or a moron.

"if this God is all that i believe Him to be,then He is the highest good in the universe. if so, He does indeed deserve to be believed in, worshipped, and praised. also, if He is infinitely good, then the goodness of knowing Him would outweigh any and all of the temporary sorrows and sufferings of this world.

says you. he doesn't sound infinitely good to me at all. not one bit.

"one of those reasons was to free the israelites from 400 years of oppression and slavery. again, if such things could be measured, it is certainly possible that the good of freeing and liberating an entire nation might outweigh the evil of the egyptian firstborns' deaths."

read my earlier point about omnipotence and infinite wisdom. can god magick all the jews out of egypt?

"and, at the beginning of exodus, the pharaoh ordered that all male israelite babies be killed (Exodus 1:22). so in that sense, the deaths of the Egyptian firstborn can be seen as a just judgment upon them."

you are continuing to display your fractured christian moral compass. the pharaoh was the one who ordered the killings. not the other egyptians, and certainly, the newborn babes and children amongst egypt's firstborns are blameless. but god killed 'em all. if your father raped a 13 year old girl and killed everyone in her family, is it just for the legal system to decree that someone should rape your teenage sister and then kill your entire family? your idea of just judgment chilled my bones, sieh. i said this in my post: "In that singular moment, I realise with a chill that he and every other Christian in this world truly and fully condone everything that God did to the Pharaoh and the people of Egypt, young and old, innocent and guilty alike." it was the same chill.

siehjin said...

>> "thanks for missing all the points in my post about the illusory nature of christian free will."
in my reading of the Bible, i find both free will as well as predestination. (you seem to see it too, but you think that the 'free will' parts are lies). therefore, in order to be true to the Bible, i believe that both are true. i would not say that free will is illusory; but neither would i say that predestination is illusory.

this position is called compatibilism, and it is a valid philosophical position to take. see http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/

>> "can god magick all the jews out of egypt?"
as i read the Bible, it seems to me that the Christian God has a sort of policy where He holds Himself back from this kind of direct intervention. He usually chooses to act through human agents, such as moses, in this case.

while this method of God's is less efficient in terms of 'getting things done', it shows us that His priority is relationships. He wants human beings to know and love Him and be known and loved by Him. working in and through human agents meets this particular objective far better than just magicking things away.

also, in holding Himself back in this manner, God shows that He really does value human free will. rather than overwhelming us with displays of His irresistible power and glory, He leaves us room to choose and decide. the sad thing is, even the israelites who saw so many of His miracles and mighty deeds, were not faithful to Him but rebelled against Him again and again.

also, the modus operandi of raising up a saviour or deliverer (in this case, moses) was a foreshadow of the ultimate saviour or deliverer to come, namely Jesus Christ.

>>"the pharaoh was the one who ordered the killings. not the other egyptians, and certainly, the newborn babes and children amongst egypt's firstborns are blameless. but god killed 'em all... your idea of just judgment chilled my bones, sieh."
i was struck by your response. perhaps you have uncovered a blind spot in my understanding of justice. this prompted me to do some reading, and i found that the concept of justice is much more complicated than i had previously thought: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice

when i look at it from an individual's point of view it may seem unjust. but if i look at it from a national collective point of view, it seems just. egypt has enslaved and oppressed israel, killing her baby boys; some form of retribution is deserved.

k0k s3n w4i said...

siehjin:
as i read the Bible, it seems to me that the Christian God has a sort of policy where He holds Himself back from this kind of direct intervention. He usually chooses to act through human agents, such as moses, in this case.

except that time when god drowned the world, of course. your statement is false.

while this method of God's is less efficient in terms of 'getting things done', it shows us that His priority is relationships. He wants human beings to know and love Him and be known and loved by Him. working in and through human agents meets this particular objective far better than just magicking things away.

read above.

"when i look at it from an individual's point of view it may seem unjust. but if i look at it from a national collective point of view, it seems just. egypt has enslaved and oppressed israel, killing her baby boys; some form of retribution is deserved."

because osama bin laden blew up the twin towers, it is therefore justified to bomb the fuck out of all the peasants of afghanistan who had nothing to do 9/11? because hitler perpetrated the holocaust, it is therefore justified to round up all germans and gas them? this is one of the biblical (im)morality i denounce in my post above - the idea that somehow, a person is responsible for a crime that someone related to them had committed.

do keep commenting. you are proving my points so well.

siehjin said...

>> "except that time when god drowned the world, of course."
actually, that time also God acted to save a remnant through a man. his name was Noah.

anyway in terms of historicity, i think that the story of the Flood is more myth than history. the fact that many diverse cultures have Flood narratives implies to me that there must have been a big flood at some time in our distant shared past - but i doubt that it covered the whole world, or that two of every species of animal could have fit on the ark.

the purpose of the Flood story in the Bible, i think, is to reveal to us a Holy God who cannot stand sin and who justly has the right to destroy all of us because we are sinful. the fact that He did not destroy the human species utterly, but left noah and family alive, and the fact that we still continue to live today, show us that in spite of His holiness and justice, He is also a God of love and compassion and He holds back His hand of judgment, giving us a chance to repent and know Him.

the other thing that the Flood story shows us is that getting rid of the 'bad people' doesn't make any difference. those of us who believe in God sometimes wonder why God doesn't get rid of people whom we think are evil - dictators, tyrants, criminals, murderers, and etc. the Flood shows us that the problem is sin in human hearts, and unless God destroys everyone, the problem will still remain.

"this is one of the biblical (im)morality i denounce in my post above - the idea that somehow, a person is responsible for a crime that someone related to them had committed."
doesn't a similar thing happen when the UN orders trade sanctions, for example against north korea? it may be Kim Jong-Il who is in the wrong, but the trade sanctions cause suffering and starvation for the masses of north koreans who had nothing to do with his decision to go ahead with nuclear testing and etc.

k0k s3n w4i said...

siehjin: "actually, that time also God acted to save a remnant through a man. his name was Noah."

doesn't negate my counterpoint that god has no qualms in intervening very directly in human affairs.

"anyway in terms of historicity, i think that the story of the Flood is more myth than history."

and somehow, you believe that the rest of the bible (jesus's miracles and resurrection, for example) isn't. this is one of the reasons why i have little respect for christian intellectual integrity. having two (or seven) of every animal on board the ark is just as impossible as a guy being born of a virgin and rising back from death.

"the purpose of the Flood story in the Bible, i think, is to reveal to us a Holy God who cannot stand sin and who justly has the right to destroy all of us because we are sinful. the fact that He did not destroy the human species utterly, but left noah and family alive, and the fact that we still continue to live today, show us that in spite of His holiness and justice, He is also a God of love and compassion and He holds back His hand of judgment, giving us a chance to repent and know Him."

directly contradicted by the existence of billions of sinful people in the world right now. he clearly stands it okay.

"the Flood shows us that the problem is sin in human hearts, and unless God destroys everyone, the problem will still remain."

no, it shows us a god who apparently created everyone up to his specifications and then put them in situation he omnisciently knew would cause them to sin - and then get pissed at the fact. sounds like a childish asshole to me.

"doesn't a similar thing happen when the UN orders trade sanctions, for example against north korea? it may be Kim Jong-Il who is in the wrong, but the trade sanctions cause suffering and starvation for the masses of north koreans who had nothing to do with his decision to go ahead with nuclear testing and etc."

and when did i say that i think that what the UN did was moral? besides, the UN can't target kim jong il specifically. your omnipotent god supposedly have the ability, but chooses to punish innocents anyway. if you can't see how fucked up your god is, then nothing will ever fix you. you are broken, sieh. your god punishes and kill innocents, even when he can avoid doing it.