"... And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our Allah and your Allah is One, and unto Him we surrender."
Surah 29 Ayat 46, Al-Qur'an
 |
| Nicked this off Quran.com. |
First off, I would like to say that I'm an atheist. I am therefore completely outside the influence of any kind of bias in this matter.
Christianity was established in the mid-1st century AD in the eastern Mediterranean and early Christians have existed in Arab-speaking lands since the 3rd century (there is still a community, though small, existing there today - talked about as recently as last year's June copy of NatGeo magazine). The Arabic language dates back to the 4th century, existing hundreds of years before Islam was founded by the prophet Muhammad in the 7th century.
You know what this means? Do I have to spell it out for youse folks? This means that Christians have been using the word "Allah" for their God hundreds of years before the prophet Muhammad was even born, before even a single Muslim existed in this world. The Christians in the Middle East today still uses it, and the Middle Eastern Muslims saw no problem with that at all. And now, you - a bunch of Malay-speaking bigots - are raising this unholy hoo-ha about how other people use a word in someone else's native tongue.
Also, read your own scriptures, Muslims. Verse 46 of the 29th surah, the Surat al-‘Ankabūt of the Qur'an (quoted right at the top of this post). Your own holy book said that the Christian God is Allah too, and even pointed out that you guys worship the same deity, the God of Abraham/Ibrahim. So what now? Muslims can call the Roman Catholic Christian God Allah, but the Christians themselves can't?
Look, you don't have to take my words for it. You have your own Qur'ans. Go thumb the pages.
Imagine now for a moment that you guys succeed in overturning the high court's decision and successfully institute a nationwide ban on the use of the word "Allah" in reference to the Christians' God - what would you have done? You'll have to ban the Qur'an now, won't you?
And one more thing, "Allah" is the generic Arabic word for God. It is not God's name. It is God's job. You cannot sue for exclusive use of a generic word - it is simply not legal to do so. How if tomorrow, I sue for the exclusive use of the word "banana", or "aeroplane" and make it illegal for anyone else to use these words in print? Good thing is, I can't lawfully do this. And neither can you.
So, my Muslim friends, you argue that you are afraid that people might confuse the two religions? You are afraid that Muslims might be bamboozled and led astray by the Catholics' use of the word?
Seriously, do you really think that your brethren are that spectacularly stupid? C'mon now, quit insulting the intelligence of your own brothers and sisters of the faith.
I am speaking up because I believe in the truth, in the freedom of speech of all humanity. If you truly love knowledge, and love the truth as your own God have ordained, you would not oppose the Catholics' use of the word Allah. Your opposition is both ignorant and unlawful, and is demonstrably against your own religion - to say nothing of torching Christian churches and Sikh temples.
There, I wrote it all in the simplest English I can.
Addendum 15/01/2010: Here is a couple of useful links given by an esteemed Muslim colleague of mine in the comments section for those who want an eloquent Muslim perspective on this matter. Certainly worth a read, in my opinion;
Isu Nama Allah: Garis Panduan Penggunaan Nama Allah
Beza Antara Merebut Nama Allah Dan Mempertahankan Akidah
And here's an easy to understand article on the reason behind the usage of the word "Allah" in the Malay Bible by one Dr Ng Kam Weng;
Allah can't be substituted by Tuhan in Bible translation
P.S. Link this post in your blog so this can reach as many people as possible. Or if you don't like to give me traffic, just copy and paste this. Or rewrite it in your own words. Seriously, I don't give a fuck.
P.P.S. Isn't it ironic that when the Religion of Love clashes with the Religion of Peace, intimidation and violence happens?
P.P.P.S. Here's a shout out to a Malay Muslim friend of mine who helped me hunt down and affirm the translation of the relevant Qur'an verse. He wishes to remain anonymous, naturally.
Assalamualaikum,
k0k s3n w4i
29 comments:
Nice research dude, hope 1 of those EXtremists read this & will be guilty as hell.
thanks for the effort, though its a very tiring work to explain again and again to more than few millions of countrymen.
heeheehee simplest english x)
trust me to not comment on the relevant bulk of the post xD
Excellent post bro.
The truth and nothing but the truth.
I have linked a brief post to yours.
Good will always triumph over evil!
As will:
Broad-mindedness over narrow-mindedness.
Knowledge over ignorance.
Struggle over privilege.
Transparency over deviousness.
Truth over lies.
Equality over bias.
Freedom, tollorance and respect for all!!
"i" the writer:
too bad the extremists are too busy membakar gereja wtf. -___-
oh yes simplest english, agree. i can understand your post easily this time hahaha. :P
dear mr seng wai
i've checked from where ur translation of the quran...
and suppose i did see that the word the translation use is "GOD" and its not 'ALLAH' as u mentioned in ur blog
from ur blog-
"... And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our Allah and your Allah is One, and unto Him we surrender."
Surah 29 Ayat 46, Al-Qur'an
this is from the translation from the site u claim that u got it from-
And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."
from same site...but how come in your translation it became "allah"?
"I" the writer: i highly doubt it but i aim to try and educate as many people as i can about it. a lot of people have too much opinion, but too little facts.
Karen: well, we do what we can. over and over again if we have to.
beve: and u were badgering me about updating for...?
mindful mariner: thanks, mate! fight the good fight!
pinksterz: well, i suppose that people who would go out and burn churches/temples/mosques wouldn't be very bright. it's a necessary accommodation :P
hikayatmoden: good question. the short answer is, i didn't use the site's translation. the long answer is, i used Hafiz Abdullah Yusuf Ali and (Mohammad) Marmaduke Pickthall's english translation. the quote i used here is Pickthall's. His (and Hafiz Abdullah's) decision to render the word into Allah probably has to do with the etymological root of the word; the contraction of al- and ʼilāh in forming the term Allāh ("the god", masculine form) parallels the contraction of al- and ʼilāha in forming the term Allāt ("the goddess", feminine form). this debate goes far beyond theology and into the origin of the Arabic word, which as i have mentioned in my post, a language which was used by Christians before Muslims existed. Still, the point of this post is to point out to all the Malaysian Muslims that even the Qur'an says that the Muslim God is the Christian God, and vice versa. Allah or Ilah does not belong exclusively to Muslims (and my point still stands). Hope this clears up your confusion.
anyway, if ur interested, Hafiz Abdullah Yusuf Ali's tranlation of the same verse is "And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, “We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam).”
halfway reading thru this, i was already thinking abt linking it to my blog.
and yes, the english is simplest this time XD
and thanks for taking the time to research this.
Good one! nothing else to add. lol. :)
mr kok wai...
problem use of Allah's word is more local in nature where it provides only a problem for the Malays only. for Muslims as a whole in this world, there is no problem, as 'Allah' is 'God' in Arabic. around the world the word is used to refer to 'god' not even matter what religion.
but the use 'allah' here, in malaysia can be a source of confusion for the Malay. because for the Malay, the word 'Allah' is used only in the context of Islam only.
and mr kok wai...
'Muslim God is the Christian God, and vice versa.'
is totally wrong
Zzzyun: well, the more people get to hear of it, the better. i didn't really need to spend a lot of time researching this. i study the bible and the qur'an on my own time, out of personal interest.
MichelleG: thanks, i'm sure there's a lot anyone can add to this. i'm only arguing from one tiny aspect of the debate, one i think to be one of the most crucial.
hikayatmoden: first, my name is kok sen wai. u may address me as mr kok if you wish to be formal.
the solution to the malay problem is simple: ask them to study the qur'an properly, learn arabic and understand the differences that separate islam and christianity. what you are suggesting here is bigoted and tyrannical. just because of SOME malay muslims' STUPIDITY & IGNORANCE, everyone else must make changes to accommodate their STUPIDITY & IGNORANCE? muslims from all the other muslim countries are laughing at us. visit some inter-religious discussion boards on the web sometimes.
and mr kok wai...
'Muslim God is the Christian God, and vice versa.'
is totally wrong
read the qur'an quote again, i'm not sure you've understood it yet. you have fundamental differences in your interpretations of god; christians are trinitarians while muslims adhere to a stricter interpretation of the one god - but essentially, you share the same prophets bringing revelations from the same God. your differences are only in the details regarding the One God/Allah/Eloah/Elohim differs. they believe that jesus is one aspect of the one god, and is the son of god. you believe that jesus is just a prophet. when muhammad came around with alleged new revelations from jibrail/gabriel in the 7th century, the christians didn't believe him, while you muslims did and still do. same god, different opinions.
you, sir, are totally wrong. not me. how dare you say i'm wrong without proving it. you have absolutely no arguments to support your position.
a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Allah belongs to no man. surely, you can't be so arrogant as to say "He's mine!" he will judge us all in time.
Mr Kok,i take this note from guttermalaysia.
i think it reflect what im trying to say here.
> The following should be issued a patent number or patent pending:
> Chinese god = Tua Pek Kong
> Muslim god = Allah
> Christian god = God (can also use "Arrah" if they want to avoid conflict with the majority of the numb-skull Malaysian Malay muslims)
> Hindu god = Many names and types (needs a very wide patent)
Not really. It is just not to confuse people. Allah is viewed by
intelligent and well read people as being the God as described in
Islam, which is very different from the God described in Christianity.
If Christianity want to use the word Allah also, they should use it
for all translations since the early days, but which they don't.
Why only now? Why can't Christians use the correct translation for God
which is Tuhan in Malay and ILA in Arabic, instead of the same name
for God
as in Islam, i.e. Allah?
Why only in Muslim majority areas that the Christians want to use the
word Allah in place of God?
The only simple explanation is that they want to confuse Muslims and
non-Muslim Arab and Malay speaking people into thinking that there is
no difference
between Muslim God and Christian God, which is completely FALSE.
and Mr Kok,
as a MUSLIM i said it again
'Muslim God is the Christian God, and vice versa.'
is totally wrong
i dont worship the christian God nor the christian worship the muslim God.
u can brag about how much u know about the history of christian and islam
and all the theory that came with it.
but sir u must understand that knowing and having faith is two diffrent thing.
As a muslim if i myself,
agree with you that muslim and christian share the same god,
than im not true to my faith anymore.
its not that i not understood the quran, but i think as a muslim i have the better understanding of the quran than you
when i say you are wrong sir, it meant you are wrong from my point of view as a muslim
to debate about "god' here sir, is useless because you sir, are man without god
u said that you are an 'atheis'
so you dont believe in God yourself.
you got your reason why u became an atheis, and im not in any manner to say that you are wrong or anything.
but to say that i dont understand my own religion that's a bit harsh
to me.
YET,again AS A MUSLIM, once again im telling you Mr Kok
Muslim God is the Christian God, and vice versa.
is totally wrong.
hikayatmoden: your very long comment said nothing besides appealing to your own feelings about the matter, but offer absolutely no light on how else surah 29 verse 46 should be interpreted.
If Christianity want to use the word Allah also, they should use it
for all translations since the early days, but which they don't.
Why only now?
u are displaying ur ignorance again. this is not a new issue. in fact, in east malaysia, the term "Allah" had been used before sabah and sarawak even joined malaysia.
Why only now? Why can't Christians use the correct translation for God
which is Tuhan in Malay and ILA in Arabic, instead of the same name
for God
as in Islam, i.e. Allah?
here's a very good explanation (LINK
) for the translation conventions used for the malay bible. the arguments in this article is linguistically, theologically and historically sound.
The only simple explanation is that they want to confuse Muslims and
non-Muslim Arab and Malay speaking people into thinking that there is
no difference
between Muslim God and Christian God, which is completely FALSE.
simple explanations for simple minds. read the above link i've provided. again, EVEN IF IT'S SOMEHOW TRUE THAT THE CATHOLICS WANT TO CONFUSE YOUR VERY EASILY CONFUSED MUSLIM BRETHRENS, IT IS STILL ILLEGAL TO BAN ANYONE FROM USING A GENERIC WORD IN THE ARABIC LANGUAGE, OR ANY LANGUAGE IN THE WORLD. no one owns the arabic language - least of all the malays. if the arabs have any problem with it, they should speak up then. and i've not say that there isn't any difference between the two religions. neither did the catholics. the point is, do you have another way of interpreting surah 29 ayat 46 that us non-muslims somehow don't understand at all? if not, i kindly advise you to shut up.
both ur religions arose from the patriarch abraham/ibrahim. the christians followed the injil, and you the qur'an. both books said different things about the same god, the god of ibrahim/abraham. do you deny this common root?
and for your information, there is no such thing as a "Chinese God". the chinese people can adhere to any religion they feel like. there are taoism, buddhism, ancestral worship... and there's also a sizeable chinese muslim population in china as well.
knowing and having faith are very different things, i agree wholeheartedly. for one thing, to claim to know something, one has to produce evidence.
its not that i not understood the quran, but i think as a muslim i have the better understanding of the quran than you
tell me then o' wise and faithful muslim, where is it that the qur'an says that christians - one of the ′ahl al-kitāb - are not allowed to use the word allah? where is it in the qur'an that renders surah 29 verse 46 moot?
defend your assertions. how you feel about something does not count as an argument.
This is not something that requires discussion at all.
Now, the main problem is :
The malays think that they own the religion. They created many of their own self-interpretations of the religion, don't you think so?
My word to Hikayat Moden is, no one owns the religion.
And, why easily confused when you all claimed to have faith?
And, yeah.
There's no such thing called "Chinese god".
hikayatmoden: look, this argument isn't going anywhere unless you bring fresh evidence to the table. no matter who wins this debate, it's not going to matter in the large scheme of things. what i aim to do is to ensure that this verse from the qur'an reach as many muslims as possible - and what they make of that verse themselves in entirely up to them. i have consulted a few of my muslim friends on this matter, and they also think that this fight with the catholics, the other People of the Scripture, is wrong.
again, the only lawful solution to this problem is that muslims should ensure that their own brethren are well-educated enough that they don't get misled into thinking that christianity is the same as islam. it's funny how you say that your faith allows you to understand islam better, yet at the same time, say that your people can get confused by something as silly as this.
I would like to suggest this book to you. Happy reading !
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7178603/Isabella
Iliyana: i have read 15 pages of it, and i shall finish reading it before the weekend - though i expect to hear the same absurdities about christianity which i myself have uncovered long ago when i studied the bible on my own. the issue which preoccupies me, i'm afraid, is not about christianity vs islam (i have personally rejected both)... but more about the case of certain extremist-ethnic-malays versus the constitution, free speech and human rights. lots of people have told me that you are the go-to person on matters about the teachings of Islam; i'm curious to know what you think of how the verse i posted here applies to the current issue of church-burnings (which have elevated to sikh temple burning too, recently), if it's not too much trouble :)
also, the book you recommended seem to engage in the most blatant of strawman-bashing. admittedly i have not finished reading it, but it has already rubbed me the wrong way in the way it presents its polemics.
Hi Kok. Just want to make some issues clear :
1) I'm sharing the book not to condemn the christians but to show that 'Muslim God is the Christian God, and vice versa' is totally wrong.
2)I'm sorry. I'm not the go-to person as other people told you. I'm far from that level. What people ask me , I refer it to someone who has better knowledge than I do.
3) And these are my answers to your questions.
http://drmaza.com/home/?p=915
http://drmaza.com/home/?p=931
Have a nice weekend !
Ilyani: thanks for taking your time out to answer my questions. I shall certainly finish reading the book you gave me and see if my question regarding the christian and the muslim gods is answered in it. their irreconcilability i already know; but i have always taken the fact that since the 3 big monotheistic religions (judaism, christianity and islam) worships the god which abraham/ibrahim, noah/noh and moses/musa worshipped. if my view on this matter is refuted within that book, i shall stand corrected, and i shall get back to you then.
you are just too refreshingly humble, btw :) at no point of time did i think you were condemning anyone. i was merely reporting the 1st impressions the book has given me.
mr Kok..
i think,the main reason im here is that...i want you to understand
we muslim dont want people to mis understand that christian and islam share a common god.
allah in islam in not the same as allah in christian. even tough both of the sentence refer to God
and you as an educated man yourself have misunderstood by saying islam and christian share the same god
there's a thin line between islam and christian,but that very thin line make a big difference in both christanity and muslim faith.
and mr Kok
the ahl al-kitab or the people of the book in the surah did not refer to the christian.
its refer to people who has faith in the One God and the Only God,the god that Abraham and jesus worship.
but in christian it self say that jesus is son of god.
to us muslim,the christian now is not the real teaching of bible,
because to us bible now had been dirtied by the human hand,the God word of the bible have been modified by human to suit their own needs.
(and im not saying that chrisian is wrong or anything, im just stated what the muslim believe,im not in the position to judge other people faith)
thats why, i tell you i understood the quran better that you.
i will shut up if you want me too and YES you are right that the word allah is not exclusively to muslim.
but Mr Kok i want you to know and understand that
islam and christian DO NOT share the same God.
please dont be confused.
and again that is why im saying what im saying all along in this conversation.
hikayatmoden: so, you are saying that this article is wrong?
Wiki on the concept of ′Ahl al-Kitāb
and these too?
Indonesian Wiki on Ahli Kitab
Malay Wiki on Ahli Kitab
my friend's malay qur'an has a footnote stating that the people of the book/scripture refers to those who adheres to the taurat and to the injil as well.
the christians believe in one god. they believe that one god has 3 aspects; the father, the son and the holy spirit. a popular way of helping people understand the 3 in 1 concept is the 3 states of water; solid, fluid, gaseous. same thing in 3 states. different, but one of the same. another well-known analogy is the 3 leafed clover/the shamrock used by st patrick to illustrate the trinity.
i am not confused at all, sir. but i believe that you simply do not have a firm grasp of the trinitarian concept. to say that christians are polytheistic is to do them a great disservice.
again you are wrong. i continuously bring evidence for my arguments. i would like to see yours. what is your evidence that the christians aren't one of the ′Ahl al-Kitāb?
i apologize for being rude when i told you to "shut up", but that's only because you keep making these mistakes (i just pointed them out above) and show no evidence to back your words. again sorry. i await any evidence you have to bring. good night.
Mr Kok,
the diffence between the christian and the people of the book
is simple is this-
the christian said jesus is god but
people of the book or ahl al-kitab only acknowledge jesus as a messenger of god.
there is no 'trinitarian concept' in islam.
'There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is His Mesenger'
hikayatmoden: people of the book or ahl al-kitab only acknowledge jesus as a messenger of god.
my question still stands. are you saying that those wiki articles on the ahl al-kitab wrong? sometimes, i don't know why i even bother hotlinking to any sort of resource when you are just going to reply with what essentially amounts to, "UR RONG, IM RITE" without addressing any of my arguments. i know there is no trinitarian concept in islam. if you are capable of reading english, you'd see that i said no such thing. christians are one of the ahl al-kitab. so are the people of the torah, the jews. not a single resource i've looked into dispute that (this includes consulting a couple of muslim friends of mine). i am convinced that you have no intellectual honesty whatsoever, and has the barest inkling of how to construct an argument. i enjoy debating, but debating with you gives me no pleasure. please stop commenting. good day.
mr Kok
anybody can write in that wikipedia.
you know how the wikipedia work rite.
what if i do a biography about you in wikipedia
in that biography,i write that you are actually a transvestite and have live from the beginning of time,take part in french revolution and you are immortal
and a person across the globe read it.
do you think its a fact or just a bunch of bull?
anybody can write in wiki.
hikayatmoden: you do know that wikipedia is self-correcting and references are required for every point made in them right? check the refs. and my friend's bilingual (arab and malay) qur'an has footnotes concurring with what's written on wikipedia. I DID RESEARCH. you are just here saying; "that's wrong" showing NO PROOF. go ahead. write a biography about me on wikipedia. see how long it'll stay on without refs and notability. you are the one that don't understand how wikipedia works.
you are clearly a troll. i'll start deleting all your subsequent comments. good bye.
and just to show that i am nothing like you;
Ahl al-Kitab according to al-qiyamah.org
Ahl al-Kitab according to oxfordislamicstudies.com
Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.
Surah 5 (Al-Mā'idah) Ayat 68, Al-Qur'an
you are too lazy to spend even one second googling the term. you are, as i've said, intellectually dishonest. a liar. now fuck off.
ok Mr Kok
an nisaa 4:171
O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.
Wahai Ahli kitab (Yahudi dan Nasrani)! Janganlah kamu melampaui batas dalam perkara ugama kamu, dan janganlah kamu mengatakan sesuatu terhadap Allah melainkan yang benar; sesungguhnya Al Masih Isa ibni Maryam itu hanya seorang pesuruh Allah dan Kalimah Allah yang telah disampaikanNya kepada Maryam, dan (ia juga tiupan) roh daripadaNya. Maka berimanlah kamu kepada Allah dan Rasul-rasulNya, dan janganlah kamu mengatakan: “(Tuhan itu) tiga”. Berhentilah (daripada mengatakan yang demikian), supaya menjadi kebaikan bagi kamu. Hanyasanya Allah ialah Tuhan Yang Maha Esa, Maha Suci Allah daripada mempunyai anak. Bagi Allah jualah segala yang ada di langit dan yang ada di bumi. Dan cukuplah menjadi Pengawal (Yang Mentadbirkan sekalian makhlukNya).
here is a translation from surah
al-imran 3:64
Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah ." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]."
Katakanlah (wahai Muhammad): “Wahai Ahli Kitab, marilah kepada satu Kalimah yang bersamaan antara kami dengan kamu, iaitu kita semua tidak menyembah melainkan Allah, dan kita tidak sekutukan denganNya sesuatu jua pun; dan jangan pula sebahagian dari kita mengambil akan sebahagian yang lain untuk dijadikan orang-orang yang dipuja dan didewa-dewakan selain dari Allah”. Kemudian jika mereka (Ahli Kitab itu) barpaling (enggan menerimanya) maka katakanlah kepada mereka: “Saksikanlah kamu bahawa sesungguhnya kami adalah orang-orang Islam”.
you can see from these two surah:
the first surah the quran stated that the people of the book is becoming depart from the true teaching of the 'injil' by saying that jesus is god etc
and from second surah stated, if people of the book,did not recognize Allah as One and Only
they are no longer part of the path
(path of the muslim that is)
meaning the muslim detach themselves from being recognized to be associate with them.
hikayatmoden: of course if they believe in the divinity of jesus, they aren't muslims. this everyone knows. but nothing you put here proves that the christians aren't people of the scripture which was your assertion - to quote yourself;
the diffence between the christian and the people of the book
is simple is this-
the christian said jesus is god but
people of the book or ahl al-kitab only acknowledge jesus as a messenger of god.
the verses you put up only beseeches the christians from adhering to the trinitarian principle, on the claim that the bible had been tampered with. whether that is true or not, is absolutely unimportant in the current issue (allah/god will tell you after you're dead). the christians remains part of the ahl al-kitab, and you can find no evidence to disprove that. thanks for playing. good day.
very awkward. it feels like you're talking to him while he's talking to himself and occasionally addressing you.
voon: obvious commenter is obvious.
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