"I hear they’ll hang you upside down
Stretched across two boards
For hearing distant voices
And crossing to the Lord"Far Far Away (2001) by Five Iron Frenzy
It's my favourite song from the only Christian band I ever liked.
That's because their lyrics aren't unimaginative, repetitive declarations of undying man-love for Jesus.
Being one of the few openly irreligious and unrepentant members of my immediate and narrow social circle, I frequently received (note past tense) invitations to participate in the bizarre rituals of my friends' faith in their houses of worship and to attend the holy soirees of their god-blessed communities. I have always maintained a respectful comportment and a constant smile on these occasions. The human smile is universally hardwired into the brainworks of our species. It transcends cultures and epochs. If you smile at a two months old baby, the little mannikin would smile back at you without ever needing to be told how to do it or what it means. By smiling, I try to non-verbally convey that I, the atheist who walk amongst you, have come in peace.
Hold tongue and hold smile; those are the same watchwords I observed when I was invited to a pastor's house party this one time by my Christian friends and colleagues. I surmised that the two essential ingredients for a good party - alcohol and good music - would not be on the table, and I was right. There were great food though. My memory's a little fuzzy but I think I originally joined them for a dinner outing but hey, surprise free dinner is even better! It's meeting a whole church-load of new people I had objections to. And don't get me wrong, I find it uncomfortable to meet more than one stranger at a time, regardless of circumstances. It doesn't matter whether it's a cell group or an atheist conference.
Prayer would most certainly be on the itinerary and sure enough, there were some. When they clasp their hands together and close their eyes in prayer or grace, I close my eyes too. I don't pray, of course. It's just that I find it really disconcerting to watch everyone around me whisper to some invisible sky person I can't see. All at the same time.
After I was fed and watered, I was expected to participate in some ice-breaking games. Without going into the details, it involved socking people with a rolled-up newspaper club and learning the names of every other guest in the premises. Fat lot of good it did because I can't recall a single name or face a couple of hours afterward. There was a general atmosphere of warm acceptance which some people find magnetic. I believe that one of the biggest draws of religion is a sense of belonging and community, and I've heard of atheists who attend church functions for the social aspects exclusively. I, on the other hand, am usually wooed by the vittles.
As the god-sanctioned festivities winded down, the pastor handed xeroxed copies of a survey to everybody. I like participating in surveys. I read one question and it asked: "What is your goal in life?"
I sneaked peeks at the answers of several persons nearby to see if I could use any of theirs. The few I saw were,
"My dream in life is to be a missionary and spread the love and joy of the gospels of Jes..."
"All I want to accomplish is to fulfill the special purpose He lovingly created me for..."
"I want to serve and love Jesus Christ more and more with every passing second of my lif..."
Wow. Their minds work so differently from mine on such a fundamentally alien level that I felt like I had dropped through a wormhole into another dimension. There's no way I can un-see that brief glimpse into the eldritch
Anyway to return to my story, I wrote a pretty generic, Jesus-less answer which I'm certain would stick out like a herpetic rash when the pastor reads it later. Onward to the next question!
"When you finally meet God in heaven, what's the one question you would ask him?"
Oh-kay. I don't think this survey was designed with people like me in mind at all.
I wrote,
I eventually settled on "How are you, sir?" Seems like a polite thing to ask the first time you meet someone, right? At that, I handed in my piece (there were only two questions) and left with my friends.
I have not been invited back since.
P.S. On hindsight, I should have written, "Ho ho ho, wouldn't you like to know how I, an avowed ATHEIST, bypassed your security and got into heaven, Mr God?"
Thinks that wool itches,
k0k s3n w4i
24 comments:
Oh my God! Didn't know being atheistically polite can be so humorous! Really admire your guts wei! XD
hey sen wai,
I came across this article.
http://johnshore.com/2010/11/30/atheisms-two-big-failures/
I disagree of course, however i was wondering what's your view towards it. :)
regards,
kel
heh xD i was wrong after all. i like this post :3
Vin Tsen Gan: what am i suppose to be afraid of anyway? they already think i deserve to burn in hell for not believing that jesus died for my sins - i don't think it's possible to pull their opinions of me any lower than that :)
kel: wow, he started off by saying it's "really wrong to stereotype" and then went right ahead and stereotyped atheists. first off, he thinks that atheists have no objective, empirical, verifiable proof that there isn't a god - and therefore, we are irrational to assume the position of atheism. he made a fatal error with that assertion. one is, the burden of proof is always on the person making the claim. that's how science works. if you say there are unicorns, you have to prove it. if you say there's a god, you have to prove it. i can't go around believing in leprechauns, ghosts and the batman just because i can't prove their non-existence. and i'm not an atheist because i can prove that god does not exist. i am an atheist because i simply don't buy their claims. atheism is the default position. i see nothing, therefore i believe there's nothing. wait what? you are saying there's something? show me. prove it.
as for his second claim, he's not even making sense. it's perfectly alright to surrender to the pleasures of art, literature, music and love. i am an atheist and i constantly do that. i enjoy films and books on both intellectual and emotional levels. in fact, i am even capable of appreciating the story of jesus' selfless sacrifice to absolve the sins of humanity [SPOILER] and his triumphant resurrection [SPOILER]. i enjoy it the same way i enjoyed gandalf's last stand on the bridge of khazad-dûm against the balrog, [SPOILER] and his return as gandalf the white [SPOILER]. enjoying a story is not irrational. but to think that every impossible thing that jesus or gandalf did were true? now, that's irrational. that's batshit insanity.
p.s. i can never tell if you actually read my posts, haha. anyway, this john shore guy is an idiot. gimme something harder.
Phoebs: of course you do :P
Hm, I am a Christian myself, but you know what? I get turned off by holier-than-thou people too. I guess I'm here to say that not all Christians are like that. We believe the same message, but we interpret them differently, practice them differently in our lives.
I think that it was kinda inconsiderate that they were passing out "surveys" like that when there are non-Christians/non-believers (which would be you. haha Were there others??) at the gathering. But I don't think they were doing that on purpose to make you feel uncomfortable. Still, you made it into a funny encounter :P haha
I respect your beliefs and views on God (or His non-existence) and I definitely do not condemn you to hell for that. Don't listen to those who say you do, cos it's BS.
Liz ^^,: i assume that since you call yourself a christian, you believe in jesus' own words? let's look into the bible then. let's just look at, um, john. just john. i doubt we need to look farther than one biblical book here. jesus said, "i am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the father, but by me." that's john 14:6. granted it's no where as popular as john 3:16, but i understand that it's quite widely quoted too. not convincing enough? well, jesus also said, "ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." john 8:24, that was. my fave is john 3:36, which allows absolutely no wiggle room for misinterpretation; "he that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of god abideth on him." it's pretty much settled in scripture that christianity is a soteriologically exclusivistic religion. i am curious, lisa, as to how you came to the conclusion that your religion does not in fact "condemn" me to eternal damnation. are you saying jesus and the apostles are talking BS?
or do you think along the lines of some of my christian friends who said, "oh, i don't condemn you to hell at all. it's god who condemned you. that's just how things work, buddy. i don't have a say in it at all" ;)
anyhow, i didn't think the survey thing was at all inconsiderate. i wasn't at all offended. and as you can probably tell, i found it quite amusing really. and i'm not certain if there were any other non-christians present. i'm pretty sure none of the other guests knew i was an atheist at all.
Whoa. Okay. If we're gonna have a theological debate, then I meekly retreat (cos I can't even quote that many Bible verses, as you just have).
There are many things that I am unsure of in my faith, even though I was born into a Christian family, and even accepted Jesus as my personal Saviour and Lord when I was 12. Although I still think I'm hardly a worthy opposing debater on this topic, seeing as I myself have my own doubts and uncertainties, here are my humble opinions anyway, if you don't mind. :)
This is the crux of Christianity: We believe that God sent his Son Jesus to die on the cross on behalf of all mankind. For all the wrong in the world, Jesus has already taken the punishment in our stead. Instead of the punishment of death, we are able to call God our Father and will join with him when we die.
The default then, is if you do not believe this, then you will NOT join God in heaven when you die; the punishment being to suffer in hell.
However, we also believe in Judgment Day. That before we are given access to heaven, God will judge us based on our life on earth, separating the righteous from the wicked like sheep from goats. (Read the passage Matthew 25: 31-46 NIV here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25:31-46&version=NIV)
From that passage, you can see that God separated the "sheep" from the "goats" by their DEEDS on earth. You notice that he claims the righteous to have fed him, gave him water to drink when he was thirsty, clothed him, visited him in prison etc. but the opposite for the non-righteous. (Of course Jesus actually means that when we do such deeds to our fellow humans it is as if doing it for Him, and he acknowledges that.) At the end, the righteous enter heaven, and the non-righteous "go away to eternal punishment".
What I want to bring your attention to is that, in relation to our discussion, God did not separate the people into "those who believe in Jesus/God" and "those who do NOT believe in Jesus/God". From this passage, I see it as, even we "Christians" are in danger of spending eternity in hell. If we (Christians) do not live out our lives the way that Jesus did on earth, he WILL tell us "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
This means, that all talk and no action, is useless in Christianity. I can BELIEVE with all my might that Jesus is God, and the Holy Trinity, and memorize all the Ten Commandments, but if I do not LIVE as Jesus told us to, then I'M condemned to hell too.
On the other hand, I truly believe in the God I believe in who is merciful and just. If someone who does not believe in Jesus/God (like an atheist?), yet lives out their lives on earth in parallel to the values that Jesus practiced in HIS life on earth, then God will take all that into consideration and they WILL have a life with God after death :)
I truly believe that Christianity was not meant to segregate, to decide who is IN and who is OUT. Who deserves to be in heaven, and who is condemned to hell.
I believe that we will be judged, ALL of us, Christians and atheists alike, and only on Judgment Day will we really know where we belong in eternity (heaven or hell), and that only GOD has the right to decide, not anyone here on earth.
Yes, Christianity says that if you believe, you will have eternal life. But then again, I don't believe we get into heaven on BELIEF alone, without DEED.
Therefore, DEEDS are the most important here. DEEDS on earth will determine where we go after death.
Sorry for the extremely long essay. :)
Liz ^^,: i am always glad to have a conversation with an intelligent person willing to take my arguments on.
i am perfectly aware of the issues the doctrine of sola fide ("by faith alone") brings up within christendom. faith alone or faith plus good work? most protestant denominations disagree with the catholic church on this. and individual christians no doubt have their own takes on it.
but that's not the issue i brought up here.
both jesus and the apostles made it quite clear that the lowest common denominator for salvation is the belief that christ is who he claimed he is, and accepting him as your saviour. and it mattered not how righteous or how christ-like i may be in life, i am evil just for the fact that i disbelieve in the existence of god. like psalm 14:1 says, "the fool hath said in his heart, there is no god. they are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."
what it comes down to is this. the verses you brought up from matthew do not concern unbelievers like me. your god had passed judgment on my ilk. the book is quite clear on the subject (i would be happy to pull up more quotes if you remain unconvinced) :)
you are a decent person, lisa. and i see you are uncomfortable with the notion of an angry, jealous god who would throw decent, unbelieving people into fire for eternity. you are not the first christian to struggle with that part of the christian religion. cs lewis (famous atheist turned anglican apologist and author of the chronicles of narnia) believed that good people, regardless of what god they believe or disbelieve in, would be judged according to their deeds alone. his belief is illustrated by his portrayal of the character Emeth in the last battle. just remember that both cs lewis and you are venturing outside the realm of sola scriptura ("by scripture alone") and are merely making guesses drawn from your personal understanding of god's mercy and justness. i appreciate your gesture nonetheless.
me? i simply can't believe in what the bible says, no matter how many times i read it - mostly because i find it to be a poor source of morality with a thoroughly unlikeable cosmic monster at its heart. if i ask you to believe in the existence of batman right this instant, can you do it? i find it just as impossible.
it is good to have doubts. only liars claim to have it all figured out :)
Ahaha, I guess you're right. I don't have it all figured out. And your strong response of saying Christians condemn atheists to hell DOES make me feel uncomfortable. Maybe you're right. I have a hard time accepting that the God I believe in would condemn decent, good-hearted non-believers too. Maybe that is why I interpret the Matthew passage in such a way.
I may be a strange Christian for thinking so, but I feel that we're all on earth here trying to figure out what life is about, and to live our lives in the best way we can, regardless of which religious faith we adhere to. I will not say who is right and who is wrong.
Somehow I believe that God understands how we struggle in finding meaning in life, cos even when we have the Bible and other holy or religious books, we STILL don't have all the answers. How do we know for SURE whether what we believe in is the truth? That's where FAITH comes in, of course.
But again, we're all just trying to live lives that have personal meaning to us. And again, I believe God will understand. For my part, I'll just do my best to be the kind of person I believe God wants me to be. Everybody ELSE is not wrong per se, cos we're all trying to do the same thing, aren't we? Be good people? I find a kind of peaceful relief from knowing that that's all I need to do. The decision of where we spend eternity, is his alone. So why do I need to worry about whether I've "secured" my access to heaven or not?
We ALL want to live good lives; it doesn't matter WHAT we believe, as long as our hearts are sincere. We'll never know till the end comes, but maybe, that's good enough. :)
Maybe that's not CHRISTIANITY, but it's what I believe. *shrug* :P
Liz ^^,: i contend that faith - or belief without proof - of any kind is a vice and not a virtue. why even believe there's a god if there's no proof? why believe in the god you believe in and not in any other equally convincing deity? i find this baffling, personally. both of us are not very different. you have faith in one god, and not in all the other gods ever described by humanity. me? i disbelieve in the same number of gods as you do plus one more.
and if you do not believe in the angry, jealous depiction of god in the bible, why believe in anything else in the book? why think of them as gospel truths and not as a collection of myths and legends?
i am incapable of faith. i am incapable of believing in anything without proof because i love the truth. i live my life asking myself constantly, "am i one of the good guys?" and try to be as decent a human being as i can. i don't believe i will be rewarded for it, but i do it anyway. and if it turns out that there's a god after all and he condemns me to eternal torture for my disbelief, then he deserves neither love nor worship. he should be rebelled against.
i devote a great deal of my time discrediting religions because i consider them to be an impediment to the advancement of humanity. they hold no objective, verifiable truth or knowledge. they have fought scientific understanding for hundreds of years simply because reality is at odds with their holy books which were written by ignorant nomadic desert people who thought diseases were caused by evil spirits and that the world was flat. they were not smarter than us. they were unenlightened savages. they fought the notion that the earth is not the centre of the universe. they fought the fact that the earth revolves around the sun and not the other way round. they denied that the age of earth is 4.5 billion years old. the latest thing they fight is the theory of evolution by natural selection, the implications of which i encounter daily in my studies as a medical student. when it comes to science, religion have lost every single time. and religion is almost always on the wrong side of morality and human rights. they advocated slavery. they tortured and destroyed those who believed differently. they have always put women and homosexuals down - and still do. they are the biggest source of human conflict and bloodshed throughout history.
faith did nothing but beggar our intelligence and corrupt our conscience, and it had been doing that from the very dawn of humankind. faith the ability to believe you are right, even when you are not. how else would you explain why people can oppress, torture and murder others and still think they are righteous people? that is the terrible power of faith.
would you agree with me, lisa, that the world could do with a lot less faith? wouldn't you prefer a world with more doubt and reason in it?
hey sen wai,
i do read ur posts from time to time, n ur replies. i appreacitae ur opinion n responses, n take this plateform to learn from you n widen my perspective at the same time. :) loved ur reply for this one...
regards,
kel
hi senwai,
with regards to what you have stated above in ur comments. I do agree that faith is making a virtue out of nothing, and i take on a logical rational empirical approach to life as much as possible, n often too, discredit the beliefs of other religions. But it came to my understanding that, what if taking the faith outta people = taking away their happiness? I have seen many believers, whereby they are live an ignorant yet blissful life. This faith beliving in nothing makes them happy. And even if you look at people who are suffering in pain and poverty, their only comfort are just faith, they find solace in believing each day that divine help might reach out to them. As much as i agree religion is a lot of bullshit, n countries like US incorporate religion into politics, n reach out to fundamentalist etc.. but if we look at society from our festive seasons, public holidays all evolve ard religions,even for marriages n funnerals, n even prolly newborns for couples as well depending on culture etc.i have experience religious biogtry first hand, from being regarded 2nd class from my christian counterparts, to even getting xmas gifts that are inferior from my cousins cuz i m nt christian, but i guess there's no way the world can do without religion? n for a wide majority, where faith n believing brings them happiness, isnt it what life is all about? the pursuit of happiness? :)
cheers,
kel
dear kel,
i believe your stance is referred to as intellectual dishonesty.
kel: a lot of atheists share your point of view. they believe that most of humanity has an inherent need to suckle on the teat of religion and suggest that for some people, particularly the disenfranchised, the unprivileged and the uneducated, faith is quintessential for hope and happiness. i find that assumption to be condescending to human dignity. it's like saying that only we, the select few can do without god, but the rest must get their fix or they'll be miserable.
i would agree that the world certainly cannot do without religion overnight - go cold turkey, so to speak - but i propose that it is possible to wean everyone off their dependence gradually. european countries have grown increasingly more secular over the decades with no detrimental effects to the quality of life of their inhabitants. in fact, if anything, secularism (or godlessness) is closely associated with higher levels of prosperity if you look at the data.
of course, it's premature to assign a causal relationship between religiousity and poorer standards of living. either can perpetuate either. but my point, before i forget it, is that religion is not essential to human happiness.
i'm perfectly happy to allow people their private beliefs. i am not a muslim or an evangelical christian, after all. my fight is against religious beliefs robbing others of liberty and rights, influencing legislation and retarding scientific progress.
Terri: actually no. she certainly has no qualms about airing her disbelief in religion - and has an understandable concern of the vacuum which can potentially manifest if we neutralise religion (which we have to admit, is central to most people's lives). this is the reason why a lot of recent activism by secularists revolved around setting up irreligious charities and organising social events. the void needs to be filled.
Hi there Sen Wai,
yes, i do agree very much with you that religion is not essential for human happiness, and that the religious shouldnt impose their beliefs on others, tho the fact is that their holy doctrines says they should preach n spread the message..tt's the problem..lol.
I would like to ask you, before u officially declared urself as an atheist, did u manange to find any concrete evidence on the existence of jesus christ, the validity of noah's ark etc? And what's the most irrational unrealistic claims that you feel from the christian religion?
still searching for the truth,
Kel :)
would u consider that if God doth exists the bible is probably a poor representation of Him, full of bullshitting by opportunistic preacher-type midges who see nothing wrong with putting words in God's mouth to propagate theit personal beliefs deemed to benefit mankind. The Bible after all is a human record of God by every other charmer who gave out the notion that they're close confidantes of God and so better than the rest of us, gd enough to tell u how to live your measly lives.The biggest proponent of those flimsy pages is The Church, which acts like a pompous ass out to rulez em all, just bcoz, ya know, the Bible is LAW. But it is like any work attempting history, colored by the author's beliefs and intents. Or even not unlike a scientific journal, that tries, but often gets it wrong because of the limits of our perception. I'm just trying to discredit the Bible here because I detest it. I detest what it stands for, that holy status of being beyond reproach and criticism...... I think the biggest problem I have with religion is when it tries to elevate the status of a select few individuals. I'm more of an agnostic though, and being a suspicious skeptic who delights in dissecting every claim ever made, I subscribe to the scientific approach to life, but my handle on it is that science is really the fluidity of so called reality rather than solid truths. because even solid is not really solid right, it just seems solid ;)
kel: well, i am sure that the magic healing-n-winemaking jesus described in the bible certainly didn't exist (i'd like to see anyone try to prove that) but i don't discount the possibility of a personality who existed in the centre of his cult in the early a.d.
as for the ark story, it's impossible. you have to believe that some guy could build a ship which could carry two of every unclean animal and seven pairs of every clean animal... in the freaking world. you have to believe that all the types of animals in the world lived in the vicinity of noah's neighborhood. you have to believe that noah's little family could feed and maintain all these creatures for 40 days. you have to believe that all these animals and the human species survived their genetic bottlenecks without any lasting effects (there's only about 10,000 cheetahs left in the wild and they are so inbred that extinction is almost eminent - can you imagine that less than 10 of every animal survived after the flood to repopulate the planet?). you have to believe that enough water to flood the world simply disappeared. you have to believe that the plants survived their underwater adventure. you have to believe that after the flood stopped, the animals redistributed themselves all around the globe to where they are today - all lemurs back in madagascar, all koalas and kangaroos back in australia (and no where else). the idea of the ark story being true is so ridiculous that even the catholic church chose to treat it as a metaphorical story, rather than history. only profoundly stupid people can believe in it.
i personally find the bible to be uniformly unbelievable.
ap: funny, i said pretty much the exact same thing. i once told a christian witnessing to me that "if god exists, he's definitely not found between the pages of the bible." and i am a sceptic too. i also consider myself an agnostic atheist. i admit that the question of god's existence may be outside the purview of science, but when i asked myself if i believe there's a god, i answered "no" - hence atheist. a lot of people think that to be agnostic means to be midway between being a theist and an atheist but that's not strictly true, per se. there's two spectrums here: the spectrum of belief and the spectrum of knowledge. one can be an agnostic theist or an agnostic atheist. of course, it's not wrong to style oneself as an agnostic if you're undecided on the matter but that's not what the word "agnostic" was first coined to represent. look up huxley's definition if you're interested. he invented the word :)
Actually, the Christians I know know better than to invite me to these things, and I also usually decline anyway, free food or not. The few times I got dragged along, I felt like I'm in the lions den.
As long as they don't try to convince me to accept Christ; I try not to shit on organised religion in general to their face. We agreed to disagree on this.
The phrase "atheist agnostic" is an oxymoron.
synical: agnostic atheist (or atheistic agnostic) may appear to be a contradiction of terms at first glance, but i assure you that it's not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism
http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutagnosticism/a/atheism.htm
ask any well-read atheist; he or she will admit to being a philosophical agnostic, but disbelieves in a god/gods.
thomas henry huxley, who coined the word "agnostic", defined it thus,
"Agnosticism is not a creed but a method, the essence of which lies in the vigorous application of a single principle... Positively the principle may be expressed as in matters of intellect, do not pretend conclusions are certain that are not demonstrated or demonstrable."
you're welcome.
Changed your mind about agnosticism?
c3rs3i: i don't think my mind changed at all since the last time we talked, but i am now making an effort at reclaiming the word "agnostic" from the folks who think that agnosticism is some sort of halfway point between theism and atheism. i have no doubt that it's perfectly legitimate for words to change their meaning due to popular misunderstanding compounded by time - but i simply thought that this shouldn't go down without a fight. do i know for sure that god doesn't exist? nope, because science cannot prove the non-existence of anything. that's why i'm agnostic. but is it probable that there's a god? nope; the steady trend of negative evidence suggests that there isn't one. that's why i'm an atheist. i mean, i can't stay undecided forever on the existence of every entity which the human mind can conceive right?
and hi. long time no see :)
dude..awesome stuff. its just massively irritating the way 'religious' people think their belief of a 'guy in the sky' is an appropriate enough motivation and reason and defense for all their choices in life.
I would love to hear you take on Hinduism though. It'll be a nice change of diet for you...
Hitchhiker: i don't have much opinion about hinduism - other than that it's equally as implausible as all the other major religions of the world. i write mostly on christianity and islam because of their virulence and infectivity, and i believe they represent the greatest threat to humanity.
ahh damn. Hinduism is a much more passive religion when it is compared to Christianity and Islam, but you'd have to grow up as a Hindu surrounded by Hindus to realise its potential for destruction. so much hypocrisy and all on the inside, cleverly hidden so it seems to pass as 'Mostly Harmless'! The caste system, is it any less harmful to humanity? but well, as I said its difficult to judge the potential unless you are personally exposed to it.
I don't know, but I feel that religion will never be the largest threat to humanity till there exists at least one man with common sense.
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